Monday, July 2, 2012

Classic Post: How to lie with misquotations!

Note:  I've gotta repost this since the nonsense that the Miller decision focused on the nature of the firearm rather than the real question--did it contribute to the national defence in regard to maintaining a "militia"--seems to be repeated in circles where one would expect more accuracy

From The Future of Gun Control by Alex Altman published in Time 26 June 2008
The U.S. Supreme Court's 5-4 decision overturning Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban is the biggest gun rights ruling since the Second Amendment was ratified in 1791. The Court had not waded into this divisive issue since 1939, when it declared, "We cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear" arms. But on Thursday the Court broke its silence to do just that, ruling for the first time that the Constitution confers an individual right to gun ownership beyond providing for "a well regulated Militia," as the amendment states. The Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home," Justice Antonin Scalia, the court's arch-conservative, wrote in the majority opinion.
The actual quote from US v. Miller is:
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.
I have already pointed out, the Miller decision incorporated by reference, the decision of
Aymette v. State, 21 Tenn. (2 Hump.) 154 (1840). Aymette makes the following point.
To make this view of the case still more clear, we may remark, that the phrase, "bear arms," is used in the Kentucky constitution as well as in our own, and implies, as has already been suggested, their military use. The 28th section of our bill of rights provides, "that no citizen of this State shall be compelled to bear arms, provided he will pay in equivalent, to be ascertained by law." Here we know that the phrase has a military sense, and no other; and we must infer that it is used in the same sense in the 26th section, which secures to the citizen the right to bear arms. A man in the pursuit of deer, elk and buffaloes, might carry his rifle every day, for forty years, and, yet, it would never be said of him, that he had borne arms, much less could it be said, that a private citizen bears arms, because he has a dirk or pistol concealed under his clothes, or a spear in a cane. So that, with deference, we think the argument of the court in the case referred to, even upon the question it has debated, is defective and inconclusive
.I think that quote from Aymette puts paid to any attempt to try to say that Miller related to private uses of firearms.

Or as Justice Douglas, who was on the Court at the Time of Miller, said in ADAMS v. WILLIAMS, 407 U.S. 143 (1972)?
The leading case is United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 , upholding a federal law making criminal the shipment in interstate commerce of a sawed-off shotgun. The law was upheld, there being no evidence that a sawed-off shotgun had "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." Id., at 178. The Second Amendment, it was held, "must be interpreted and applied" with the view of maintaining a "militia."

"The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be [407 U.S. 143, 151] secured through the Militia - civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion." Id., at 178-179.

Critics say that proposals like this water down the Second Amendment. Our decisions belie that argument, for the Second Amendment, as noted, was designed to keep alive the militia. But if watering-down is the mood of the day, I would prefer to water down the Second rather than the Fourth Amendment.
Before you come up with any silly comment about Douglas not understanding Miller, keep in mind that while he was a member of the court even if he did not take part in the oral argument.

I would assume that he would have been privy to the discussions surrounding the Miller decision--Don't you??????

Anyway, taking a half-quotation, out of context, definitely changes the meaning from what was originally intended.

12 comments:

  1. Try as you might, that dead horse is just not going to get up no matter how much you beat it.

    2A = individual. Its decided and done.

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    1. I think you're wrong here FWM.

      We used to have a legal tradition where precedent mattered in decisions, and where that precedent was not undone by SCOTUS justices who acted with potential conflict of interest, as we have seen from the conservative justices on this court.

      That criticism of those justices for acting improperly is not along political lines; there is a substantial body of constitutional scholars who make that criticism, just as there has been a substantial, I would even say majority, of such scholars who are critical of that aspect of the decisions which form our status quo for the moment.

      But in abandoning that legal tradition, they have themselves made it easier to undo their decision, to revert to the earlier precedents and findings of other SCOTUS decisions.

      The horse may be lying down; it is far from dead, nor is it evident that the horse won't get up again later.

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    2. Think, nothing!

      Know, yes.

      This is a person who admits that he had no idea of who Ayn Rand was until fairly recently.

      If anything, his comment further demonstrates his high level of ignorance.

      Heller-McDonald were 5-4 decisions--if anything that means he is WRONG when he says:

      "2A = individual. Its decided and done."

      No, it's more like "2A=now in contest".

      Of course, someone like FWM will believe whatever shit is peddled to him if it fits his belief system.

      So, FWM how do you deal with the fact that the entire Second Amendment deals with "a Well-regulated militia"?

      And where are the individual purposes mentioned ANYWHERE in the US Constitution.

      If anything, FWM, you should shut up and maybe learn something.

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    3. BTW, FWM, can you provide a quotation, which when read in its entirety actually supports your position--not mine.

      I'm serious--come up with something which doesn't deal with standing armies, Article I, Section 8, Clause 16, or something similar--and I'll accept your version of reality.

      But, I repeat, But.

      It will be a chore because even the PA Minority, which is cited as gun friendly said:

      Thirdly, the absolute command of Congress over the militia may be destructive of public liberty; for under the guidance of an arbitrary government, they may be made the unwilling instruments of tyranny. The militia of Pennsylvania may be marched to New England or Virginia to quell an insurrection occasioned by the most galling oppression, and aided by the standing army, they will no doubt be successful in subduing the* liberty and independency; but in so doing, although the magnanimity of the* minds will be extinguished, yet the meaner passions of resentment and revenge will be increased, and these in turn will be the ready and obedient instruments of despotism to enslave the others; and that with an irritated vengeance. Thus may the militia be made the instruments of crushing the last efforts of expiring liberty, of riveting the chains of despotism on their fellow citizens, and on one another. This power can be exercised not only without violating the constitution, but in strict conformity with it; it is calculated for this express purpose, and will doubtless be executed accordingly.

      As this government will not enjoy the confidence of the people, but be executed by force, it will be a very expensive and burthensome government. The standing army must be numerous, and as a further support, it will be the policy of this government to multiply officers in every department: judges, collectors, taxgatherers, excisemen and the whole host of revenue officers will swarm over the land, devouring the hard earnings of the industrious. Like the locusts of old, impoverishing and- desolating all before them.


      So, other than someone who is admittedly ignorant trying to tell me I am, wrong without being able to properly back up that statement--I have yet to see anything which is persuasive that the founders gave a rat's arse for personal firearms and intended for the Second Amendment to address anything other than that the Militia would not be ignored for a standing army.

      And given the US military budget--you have a really hard time proving that the Second Amendment is meaningful for anything other than a litmus test for how historically ignorant the average US citizen happens to be.

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    4. I've actually figured out a better response to FWM.

      OK, so I should take an opinion which is based upon quite a strong factual basis and change it based upon someone who had no idea of who Ayn Rand was until recently just because he says it's so.

      Are you serious?

      And you call us sheeple! Gimme a break,

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  2. I think you guys are missing my point. It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong or if you are. We don't sit on the court and it is decided, done.

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    1. We get your point FWM, and you are wrong.

      It probably doesn't mater if you're right or wrong, but it DOES matter if the majority of constitutional scholars believe the court is wrong.

      And just because it was decided doesn't mean it is correct, doesn't mean it deserves our support, and it doesn't mean by any stretch that it is 'done', only that it is temporarily in effect.

      No matter how you try to oversimplify it or spin it, THAT is a more accurate position. The court did something wrong, and how they did it did something very damaging.

      Further, the result of that decision has contributed to the deaths and injury and other harm to a lot of people.

      You appear to be trying to blow all of that off, and that is wrong.

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    2. FWM, you really are showing your ignorance in this post.

      Can you substantiate your point?

      I've gone through this with Jim, but by reversing a unanimous decision and coming up with a split decision, it is far from being "Done".

      It allows for judges to decide which of the two schools is far more persuasive, which the Civic Right interpretation is in my educated opinion. In fact, if anything judges taking my opinion could raise unholy havoc with the legal system due to five judges voting their opinion rather than the law.

      But, I take it that you don't mind if the judge makes the law up as he feels like it which is the ultimate upshot of these misguided decisions.

      As I asked Jim, show me where there is a provision for Judicial review of laws for constitutionality?

      That in and of itself allows for this decision to be ignored.

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  3. For about 150 years everyone in America knew that the 2nd was and individual right. Then some activists judges got it wrong in Miller and some people start creating the whole civil right nonsense out of their decision. Heller just affirmed what everyone already knows to be true--individual right. Well, everyone except a handful of liberals anyway.

    :)

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    1. FWM, can you substantiate in any meaningful way other than you would like to believe it was so your claim that "everyone in American knew" something?

      Because I've read some pretty extensive and well researched history on the 2nd Amendment, and there is NOT, I repeat NOT a lot of primary source material to back up your assertion, whereas there is quite a bit that says you are wrong.

      So, if it turns out you've read any good non-fiction books of the variety that give primary source footnotes that we can verify, instead of gun loon revisionist history that has no basis in fact, I will entertain your premise.

      But keep in mind Laci and I have read more than one or two books on this subject, so please be careful not to fall into the category of an "I read a book once" overnight expert.

      You are wrong about the history, you are wrong about 'some activist judges'.

      Seriously, you need to have a more discerning and informed intellect on this one FWM.

      But gun issue wrangling aside - I hope you have a glorious, safe and happy 4th.

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  4. Since everyone here thinks it is so important, I just downloaded Atlas Shrugged to my Nook. I'll read it in a couple of weeks and see what you all are so excited about.

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    1. Good for you FWM!

      Lets be clear here though -- Atlas Shrugged is fiction, and not particularly good fiction and not particularly good political theory either.

      But it IS iconic American literature, although some schools of thought put it as more like English language Russian literature, LOL.

      So, are you going to share with us your source for those claims about the historic view of the 2nd Amendment?

      Hint - anything by the idiot faux-historian Barton won't (pardont he pun) pass muster.

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